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From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #234
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 11 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 234

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. This is the company we're dealing with.
         2. Re: surgical strike force
         3. Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag
         4. Re: The Iridium Standard
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
         6. Re: surgical strike force
         7. Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #233
         9. Re: This is the company we're dealing with.
        10. Re: The Iridium Standard
        11. Re: the Iridium Standard
        12. Re: Corn Dogs
        13. Re: The Iridium Standard
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #232
        15. Is the Imperium an impossibility?
        16. Re: This is the company we're dealing with. 
        17. The Energy Standard, was: The Iridium Standard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:50:32 -0700
Subject: This is the company we're dealing with.

I just had the most amazing call from Imperium Games.

Quick Backround:  I had mailed off my check for the hardback set of rules..
a few days later my wife goes shopping with the ATM card.  That sound you
heard was my $35 check entering the atmosphere at .1c on its way to a bounce.

Much wailing and gnashing of teeth followed.

Today, I got a phone call from IG.  They will hold my order for me until I
get a money order to them!  The person I spoke to was pleasent, and left me
with the impression that IG is in a customer service mode of thinking.

In 20 years of gaming, I have never had a company bend over backwards for me
like that.  They have a customer for life now.

+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|             Now Appearing At:              |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/duckpage.htm |
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind so |
|     much as the discovery that you have    |
| walked into an ambush."  -Thomas Packenham |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:50:27 -0700
Subject: Re: surgical strike force

At 11:34 AM 7/10/96 -0400, David Jaques-Watson wrote:

>I still have an interesting q that arose from this: in your opinions, 
>what does a high-tech surgical strike team consist of? Is it:
>- - a bunch of guys in battledress (a la _Starship Troopers_);
>- - an elite infantry commando (to take out Navarre, for eg.);
>- - an elite mech infantry force, that glides in using grav APC's, busts up 
>the target, and glides out again?

Yes.

The opperation defines what you are going to use.  If the Imperial Marines
are raiding a pirate base, then it's BD and fusion time.  If a small team
needs to infiltrate a secured perimeter, Combat Enviroment Suits and Gauss
weapons.

Your third option describes a classic air-mobile "Mike Force" attack.  A
recon unit on the ground (probably only 3 or 4 men) reports contact and the
Mike Force choppers in to pin the enemy down while more assets are gathered.
This might describe the future of grav warfare: a series of meeting engagements.

>Are there other options?

The Imperial Marines probably have specially trained boarding parties,
trained especially for taking enemy ships away from their rightful owners.

>Also, I've noticed that the US government is concerned 
>that the smart weapons from the Gulf War may have been more expensive 
>than their targets (although are the factoring in the benefit of making 
>their ground forces safer??). Is the economic line a major factor when 
>weighing what forces to use against what targets?

Hehehehehe.. I knew the Air Farce was lying about the smart bombs.  If you
are the United States, no.  The US Military has a tradition of overwhelming
force applied with a certain childish glee.  (Before anyone flames, please
remember, I was in the US Army, and saw it for myself.)

The Imperium will probably be in the same circumstance in regard to the Navy
and Marines.  Training can really be defined by how ofton you get to fire
your weapons, and I think the Imperium will make sure that the Emperor's own
troops are the best.
+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|             Now Appearing At:              |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/duckpage.htm |
| "Nothing concentrates the military mind so |
|     much as the discovery that you have    |
| walked into an ambush."  -Thomas Packenham |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 21:59:21 -0600
Subject: Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag

On 07/10/96 at 05:42 PM,  jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
said:

> I may be able to set up a completely Web-based Traveller
> magazine/encyclopedia. 

>  What I'd like to know:

>  * Would people here be willing to write for it?

Yes, however I don't know if anyone would be interested in what I
write.  <g>

I would most certainly be interested in *reading* it!

>  * What would you like to see in it?

The same sort of stuff that'll be going into JTAS.  Wouldn't it be
nice if there was *so* much that JTAS couldn't publish it all? <g>

1. Ship Designs, complete with deckplans.

2. Adventures and adventure seeds.

3. House rules. 

4. Rules extentions.

5. System Descriptions/World Descriptions, complete with maps.

6. FTF and PBEM game offerings/requests.

7. Any and everything! <g>

>  * What should I do to avoid stepping on Imperial Games's toes?

Get this all approved by MM and IG before you start.  I doubt they'll
have a problem if you aren't charging/paying, honor MM's and IG's
copywrites, AND get approval in advance.

>  * What do you think of the idea in general?

I love it!  One of my early suggestions to MM about T4 was to support
various varient futures..more than just the Mileu they are talking
about..with EMags (if not printed newsletters). 

>  * What other comments do you have?

Go for it! <g>


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:53:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Darryl Adams wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Remenber that a floated doller is based on perceptions, not facts and not
> figures. Someone percieves that a currency is changing value, he acts on
> it, making a change in its value. How can you do this when even in Year
> 0, there is up to a six month timelag on communications? The perception
> one would get about a value for a currency is based on assumptions,
> guesses and infomations that _must_ be obsolete even when it was sent via
> the x-boat system.

The real question is, would this matter?  Anyone on a particular planets
stock/whatever market would hear news at ostensibly the same time---that
is, minimum jump time from the news source.  In essence, everyone will
hear the tree fall at the same time.  It doesn't matter that the
information happened six months ago, those on the same planet will learn
this information at the same time and act on it.

I see, then, trading within the Imperium not as specific and absolute
blocks, but more like a bunch of pebbles tossed in a pond (to wax
philosophical for a moment).  Trading based on this system would be very
complex---it is concievable (and probable) that the market crashes on
the spinward side of the Imperium and booms on the trailward side, etc.

I also see a ton of possiblities for adventures for trading characters.
And a stronger role for more organized corsiars.  Two ideas based on this
line of reasoning: Corsairs delay a(n) x-boat and then make a killing on
another market with the information only they have.  Or, enterprising
characters set up an arbitage system, and try to make a killing...

Granted this doesn't have much to do with the currency discussion...

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

> > The problem that the Third Imperium had was it trusted it's computer's to
> > be there for them, and one day they weren't and everything just fell
> > appart.
>
> It didn't help that just about every system was wired into computers
> somehow (just look at the massive computer integration that was built
> into pre-Collapse starships), and almost everything was built according
> to widely-disseminated design standards (the Imperial Data Package) which
> were also built into the Virus program.  According to "Survival Margin",
> the first-generation Virus basically had the blueprints on everything
> from mechanical pencils to jump drive relay governors.  Of course, I
> don't even want to BEGIN to theorize about what the hell a Virus-infected
> system could do with a mechanical pencil...

Well, I just read _Ringworld_ by Larry Niven (liked it so much I added it
to my tagline), as I'm sure most of you have.  Niven does portray much
about how a civilization is decimated by Bacteria (so it isn't Virus, sue
me---no don't, I can't afford it).  I would imagine Virus is along the
same lines...as the bacteria ate away at the superconductors necessary to
sustain life on the Ringworld, the populace squandered valuable time doing
nothing, like using their dwindling power supply for freezing food and
floating cities, and then everything went tits-up when the power ran out.

It is POSSIBLE (don't throw any objects at your computer, I'm just
theorizing) that this is what happened to the Third Imperium because they
did not have the guts (for lack of a better word) to regress to a stable
TL of (what 7?) that could have weathered the Virus by reverse-obsoleting
it (i.e. making their systems, and even daily life, incapable of
supporting Virus by means of stupidifying it).

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:12:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: surgical strike force

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, David Jaques-Watson wrote:

> Also, I've noticed that the US government is concerned
> that the smart weapons from the Gulf War may have been more expensive
> than their targets (although are the factoring in the benefit of making
> their ground forces safer??). Is the economic line a major factor when
> weighing what forces to use against what targets?

Remember that a good portion of the smart weaponry used in the Gulf
Conflict didn't do quite as well as it could have (because it missed,
etc.), which would factor into the price.  (But they didn't show the ones
that missed on CNN)

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:16:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>   What I'd like to know:
>
>   * Would people here be willing to write for it?
>
>   * What would you like to see in it?
>
>   * What should I do to avoid stepping on Imperial Games's toes?
>
>   * What do you think of the idea in general?
>
>   * What other comments do you have?

      Yes^5.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: jbogan@nyc.pipeline.com (John H Bogan Jr)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 04:18:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #233

On Jul 10, 1996 22:32:44, 'owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM' wrote: 
 
>From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com> 
>Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:48:00 -0500 
>Subject: Re: Corn Dogs 
> 
>> I'm sorry if I confused some people I don't own a copy of "Sneaks and  
>>Geeks" so I'm quoting directly out of the TNE novel "To Dream of Chaos." 
>> 
>>The doctor has just eaten a corn dog and things that the Hiver's were  
>>pretty inventive for putting cheese inside the dog. 
>> 
>>"Did you enjoy it?" 
>>"Yes, I did, thank you." 
>>"How surprising.  Most humans profess to find them disgusting." 
>>"What's in them?" 
>>"Nothing toxic, I assure you.  It is simply a variety of parastic  
>>segmented worm, much like your terran leeches, batter-dipped and fried." 
>>"Ungh." 
>> 
>>Well the conversation goes on from there to describe the life cycle of  
>>the worm etc.  Its on pages 77-78 for those of you who are interested. 
 
Of course, one problem with this is that the doctor was Aubaini, 
which is a waterworld, and the local diet would resemble  
Japanese cuisine far more than American. And whatever meat 
(if any) is in the dogs, it likely isn't any medium- to large-land-animal, 
not enough land-area to support them. 
 
Aubaini would be the *last* people in the Coalition to 
get disgusted at the idea of eating sea-slug-thingies. 
 
- -- 
 
John H Bogan Jr       jbogan@pipeline.com 
 
No building is so tall that even a small dog  
can't lift it's leg on it. 
                                  --- Jim Hightower

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:19:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: This is the company we're dealing with.

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> I just had the most amazing call from Imperium Games.
>
> Quick Backround:  I had mailed off my check for the hardback set of rules..
> a few days later my wife goes shopping with the ATM card.  That sound you
> heard was my $35 check entering the atmosphere at .1c on its way to a bounce.

Fine, Fine, but the real question is (running for cover): What's the
kinetic energy of a check at .1c?

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 23:24:10 -0600
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On 07/10/96 at 06:50 PM,  "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
said:

First of all, I agree..more or less..with you on this, but...

>If somebody had found gold nuggets by the ton on say
>for  example Australia, economies would have been wrecked wholesale
>in the  18th century...

...it was *very* unlikely huge quantities of gold nuggets would have
been found anywhere by the 18th century, and everybody *knew* it.
Economies were predicated on gold's relative rarity, based on
thousands of years of experience.  Gold is still valued more for it's
rarity than it's commercial use, even if economies don't peg their
currency on it anymore.

>Actually, an interstellar empire is even less likely to base its 
>currency on a precious metal of any kind, when you consider there's a
> great chance that the system 2 parsecs over might have enough of
>your  **precious** metal to the point where they use it in thin foil
>sheets  to wrap candy bars...

I can't quite buy this either.  Elemental distribution isn't likely to
vary *that* much from system to system.  Sure system X, may contain
larger quantities of **precious** than system Y, but California also
contained larger quantities of a **precious** than New York or
England, and in fact so did Australia.  New York and England were
still the centers of power.

>Sorry to spout, but this is just not an economically sound 
>argument...

Pegging the credit on gold, probably isn't the most economically sound
system.  However gold, and many other elements, will continue to be
rare.  Rare enough to be used as money, if a government so chooses.

IMHO,

Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:39:34 -0500
Subject: Re: the Iridium Standard

<lots snipped>
>>
>> Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
>> the Imperium could be put together and endure very long.
>>
>> How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g>
>
>Sounds good to me. :)  I hope it doesn't become a flame war, though.
>
>It's hard to say what size of a maintainable empire can be sustaind for
>a good length of time.  The only real examples we have are the Roman
>Empire and the empire largely created by Genghis Kahn. At least, those
>two seem most relevant to the discussion, IMO.
>
>Any other relevant examples spring to mind?

The British Empire, of course. The loss of the North American colonies is,
in Britain, in *part* explained by the huge communications delay (four
weeks at best, I believe, but that's only from vague memories of "AO" level
History, courtesy of Millfield School, Street, Sommerset).

Better yet is the battle of New Orleans, fought by the Britsih Empire
*after* the peace was agreed upon, simply because word hadn't arrived yet.

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:52:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

It was thus said:

>> and again I am amazed at how few people understand the "corndog" issue that
>> they complain about.  H&I presented the life of both Hiver and Ithklur.
>> "Corndogs" are a part of that life.  Life is funny if you know where to
>
>OK, granted, the "Corndogs" idea is an interesting study in culture
>clash...not all that funny, but mildly interesting...

My own beef with the Corn Dogs comes from the sheer number of 20th century
referrences found in later Traveler material. Would a civilization
X-hundred years from now *really* still be obsessed by late 20th-century
junk (read "pop") culture? It struck me as being damn culturally
self-centered. For me, the whole mystique of the Imperium broke down on
such pieces of pop-centricism. Especially the Monty Python referrences. And
I'm a Monty Python FAN!

How much popular culture from even 150 years ago is still around on this
island Earth?

Just my particular niggling opinion.

John Kovalic



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 23:47:05 -0600
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On 07/10/96 at 08:53 PM,  Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
said:

>The real question is, would this matter?  Anyone on a particular
>planets stock/whatever market would hear news at ostensibly the same
>time---that is, minimum jump time from the news source. 

Ah, but would they?  You're assuming a level playing field, and with
money on the table nobody plays all that fair.  If I can get news/info
about outside conditions a few days, even hours, before more
competition then I'll have an advantage.  On X-boat routes that might
not be possible, but not every planet is on those routes, and the
X-boats weren't there throughout the entire 3rd Imperium.

>I see, then, trading within the Imperium not as specific and absolute
>blocks, but more like a bunch of pebbles tossed in a pond (to wax
>philosophical for a moment).  Trading based on this system would be
>very complex---it is concievable (and probable) that the market
>crashes on the spinward side of the Imperium and booms on the
>trailward side, etc.

I see it as waves of information rolling back and forth across the
Imperium.  I also think the crash of a company or major system on one
end of the Imperium might propogate across the whole Imperium, perhaps
petering out as the precieved importance of the company or system
declined. 

>Granted this doesn't have much to do with the currency discussion...

Actually, I think it does. <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:13:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #232

>To paraphrase Jeff Goldblum from Jurasic Park.
>
>"You were so busy trying to figure out how to do it that no one bother to 
>stop and think whether they should be doing it at all."

I know this is way off topic, but I think this is one(probably second) of my
all time favorite lines from a movie.  BTW, I think it applies incredibly
well to Virus.

As a side note, those of you who have kids will appreciate my favorite line:

>From the mother in "Honey I blew up the Kid":

"There's one thing that every kid knows, dads mean fun, but momma means
business!!"


Sorry to waste bandwidth!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 00:06:49 -0600
Subject: Is the Imperium an impossibility?

On 07/10/96 at 08:41 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>It's hard to say what size of a maintainable empire can be sustaind
>for  a good length of time.  The only real examples we have are the
>Roman  Empire and the empire largely created by Genghis Kahn. At
>least, those  two seem most relevant to the discussion, IMO.

Those were two I had in mind. 

>In both cases, transportation was a great factor.  And, again in both
> cases, great pains were taken to ensure as speedy and reliable of 
>transportation (and, therefore, communication) as possible.  

Romans built their roads, and the Mongols had, what amounted to, a
pony express network.

>Can someone provide figures for the time lag from the seat of these 
>empires to the furthest reaches, at their greatest?  

Two months?  <g> Ok, I'm guessing, but once the road system was in
place Roman couriers on horseback or chariot could cover at least 50
miles a day, and 50*60=3000 miles!  The Mongols really did have a pony
express system setup, and rapid movement was one of their hallmarks.

>Any other relevant examples spring to mind?

Actually, I think the British Empire is relevant.  During the 18th
century the British had possisions all over the world.

These Empires all gave a good deal of control to local governors
rather than trying to govern from the center.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 14:46:28 +1000
Subject: Re: This is the company we're dealing with. 

hi,

>Fine, Fine, but the real question is (running for cover): What's the
>kinetic energy of a check at .1c?

And will it destroy the planet's eco-sphere?  :-)



Pauli

Paul Dale                       | Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au
Computer Centre                 | +61 77 814 551
James Cook University           |
Australia, 4811                 | Did you know that there are 42 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?



------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:23:51 +0100
Subject: The Energy Standard, was: The Iridium Standard

Hi there

I seem to recall some SF book (an E. E. Smith?) in which a fledgling
empire, or one that had just survived/avoided a major upheaval, went
on the Energy Standard - ie. a credit would be worth x amount of
energy, and rationally all goods would be valued in terms of the
energy spent to create them.  Of course, in reality, goods and
services would be priced according to the market, as affected by
protectionist policies, taxes, scarcity (real or artificial), etc.
However, the credit would still be pegged to the rarity of energy.  I
don't think this is at risk from advances in fusion technology, and
anyway it could just depend on the cheapest way of making energy (in
the Imperium).  Of course, I think widespread anti-matter powerplants
may have caused problems.

Any one with some idea of economics (reflected sounds of underground
little people) care to comment on the viability of this?

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #234
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